During Type A mom there was a luncheon/speaker session. This description was taken from the Type A Mom website regarding the topic:
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Working with Companies
Companies want to work with bloggers, and most bloggers want to work with companies. From reviews to spokesblogging to direct blog advertising, there are many ways for the two worlds to collide. At the same time, there are questions about how to do it right. Experts from both the corporate/marketing side and the blogging side share their experiences and insights. Featuring Lucretia Pruitt moderating, Angela LoSasso, Stephanie Smirnov, Nancy Martira, David Binkowski, Jessica Smith and Amy Lupold Bair.
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Let me summarize: Hypocritical Mess.
Now I am not saying there wasn’t a great deal of information exchanged, and I did enjoy watching Jessica Smith from Fleishman Hillard roll her eyes into the ceiling about 150 times out of frustration (and oh, yes you did Jessica), but what took the Little Debbie for me was David Binkowski.
A little background on David: He spearheaded the firm’s Word-of-Mouth Marketing division in 2005, leading hundreds of online campaigns representing numerous international and national brands for corporations including P&G, Outback Steakhouse, Evian, Eli Lilly and Company, Dressbarn, Underwriters Laboratories, Brother and Intuit.
Dude, this guy is a douche.
I had to actually walk out for a deep breath somewhere between him claiming that bloggers should have a lawyer and how his bloggers are authentic AND “well” paid. Then the discussion turned to professionalism on blogs. Basically if you want to work with a company, then you have to be professional. Low key on the “f**ks” and all that.
First off, I just don’t get it.
Don’t get me wrong, I went to college, I’m not an idiot. I understand the reasoning if Graco isn’t interested in sticking their brand right on top of some abortion rights activist blog online. But, and correct me if I am wrong, PR moved into blogs based on the real life draw they have, the actual discussion and interaction with their visitors, therefore why are bloggers now being told they have to alter their content in order to have company representation?
It was like a light bulb went off for me regarding who is really driving the ethics into the ground around here. How about….stop telling us we have to basically sit behind a desk and follow some corporate memo in order to be accepted.
Do you want ME telling my audience how I feel about your brand or do you want YOU telling my audience about your brand.
Pick one.
Because if its YOU telling them, just cough up the advertising dollars on the sidebar and lets be done with it.
If I started changing how I acted here to represent brands, then the brands would actually fail because my audience would be left scratching their head wondering when I sold out.
And make no bones about it, there are exceptions to the rule.
The panel had no problem letting us know that companies would fall all over themselves to be on the great Dooce’s blog and she could do what she wants, but Tide wouldn’t exactly be sponsoring The Bloggess (even though I personally thought her post was pretty damn memorable and did more for the brand than a “TIDE IS AWESOME” cookie cutter post) anytime soon.
And to even further the double standard, after sitting through some crappola on professionalism, a few hours later at the speaker dinners, David was tweeting out, along side some ‘mystery’ photos, the following :
and the next day:
Gosh, I didn’t realize DressBarn’s definition of professionalism was so liberal.
Maybe I’ll hire a lawyer to translate it all for me…
~Trisha
I hired an attorney when I first started my blog and honestly about the only productive thing he did for me (other than take large sums of money) was scare the living daylights out of me. I seriously wanted to get into reviewing because it just seemed like so much fun but now I’m terrified. Welcome to the world of lawyers.
Look for my professionally written terms of use coming to my blog soon.
Addressing certain aspects of this post –
Any person who wants to be taken seriously as a professional must monitor their comments both personally and professionally online – if someone is going to be speaking before women at a conference and then send out tweets as were mentioned – to me all credibility goes out the door and I would consider it an insult, and would not align myself with anyone like that. No wonder women aren’t taken seriously. If you’re going to tweet such comments – open a separate account.
I agree with the comments that many bloggers can’t even afford hosting and are blogging for cupcakes – there’s no money in the cookie jar to have an attorney review a contract. Perhaps the contracts or agreements aimed towards the mom blogger market should be written in plain language, not legalese – write for your reader.
By the way – I’m a Paralegal by profession.
I honestly can’t foresee hiring a lawyer, I don’t take my blog as a “business” at this point. I work with a lot of brands, and I don’t get paid for it. I do it because I either believe in their product or I feel my readers would love their product.
Hiring a lawyer to review what? I don’t have any contracts … I don’t really understand..most of us are work at home mom’s or stay at home Mom’s. I am a married mother of three who has a husband who just quit his job back in August and ever since then I have been scrounging to make it financially. My blog is my place to keep my head above water … and to keep the positive flowing for myself and everyone.
I don’t get why bloggers are getting all this crap placed on them lately … most of us do FREE advertising for these brands…what more do they want?
I was a member of the panel you’re referring to, am in PR, and am the person who fielded Anissa Mayhew’s question about why Dooce seems to get a pass from advertisers despite the fact that her posts are often R-rated. I’m also the person who said in all candor that no, Tide (my client) would probably not invite Jenny Lawson (The Bloggess) into a formal brand ambassador relationship because –as Jenny herself would be the first to admit — she is not entirely G-rated and Tide is part of P&G, an extremely conservative company with stated corporate guidelines about aligning itself with family values influencers and ambassadors. Before you get your dander up, keep in mind that it was this commitment to a particular set of values that caused P&G to pull advertising when Don Imus (speaking of d-bags) notoriously insulted the women’s basketball team of Rutgers University. No, Jenny Lawson is not Imus. Please. Rather, the common link was controversy. Huge mass brands that have to appeal to a common denominator of public opinion well, chances are — they’re going to avoid the fringes — whether of the Bloggess or Imus varieties. You should also know that in big companies, the media buys (including online) are done by media-buying agencies who are playing a numbers game — it’s all about traffic and content unfortunately is sometimes of secondary concern. I”m not saying that’s the case with my clients because I don’t work on the media-buying side — but I have to think this accounts for some of Dooce’s success as an advertising draw. I also chimed in on the question of whether bloggers should have lawyers review any letters of agreement when entering into a material relationship with a marketer. I’m not sure why you take offense to that — my point was entirely that your services are valuable enough to be taken seriously, and by all means — protect yourself. If that mean having a lawyer look at your contracts with brands, great. Now, I’m not going to address your personal criticism of Dave Binkowski — none of my business. But I”ll continue to share my perspective as candidly as possible with any blogger who asks about what big marketers think and what you have to do if you want to develop deeper, ongoing relationships with them as ambassadors. If that angers you, no problem — there are dozens of awesome companies out there with more relaxed guidelines who would love to push the edge with you. There’s room for all of us in this space.
I get all that.
What I don’t get is the do as I say, don’t do as I do attitude that seems to be prevalent amongst “professionals” in the bloggysphere. This isn’t just blanket to PR, but in general those that put themselves out as Leaders seem to break the rules as often as they make them.
With new women entering the blogosphere trying to find a true, authentic voice in addition to working with companies without ‘selling out’, there definitely is a lack of information that lead women in any direction. I actually hear women they are AFRAID to post their beliefs. That’s really sad considering companies entered this space to harness the relationships women have already developed.
And while I am really open about freedom of speech and even public relations, I am still under the attitude that we are always being watched and if someone is talking to me ABOUT a subject, I expect them to be following the same rules.
My article really isn’t about individual companies because companies are reaching out and we are far from “G”. In fact, I have worked with Tide quite a bit, was at their blogger luncheon, part of pre-testing program, and they were even kind enough to send a car at BlogHer for us at the airport. So while they may be “conservative”, they do plenty with bloggers that are just not all candy and roses as well. (And this is probably one of the more tame articles we have done related to controversial subjects -which they are well aware of.)
Regarding attorneys, its just not realistic to expect that a blogger in this space would go that far. Its easy for someone in an industry with a steady paycheck to say to talk with an attorney, but we are talking about household women that work for cupcakes and coupons. Most women cannot even afford hosting their own website and certainly the majority dont reach enough page views to even make CPM worth their time.
I understand taking a profession seriously, and most women in this space DO do that. But jumping to attorney and contracts when most of the industry barely takes mom bloggers serious, is like asking someone poor to buy a Lexus. Unless companies are going to provide an attorney to the bloggers, or someone is receiving a contractual agreement that pays, well, in the “Dooce” range, i think its just a moot point for 99 out of 100 bloggers.
Regardless, my real point was that I disagree with people on panels that give out one bit of information and then turn around and do another. If all eyes are on US every moment, then PR needs to believe, and practice, the same thing. I am not the only one that feels that way.
I hold my teachers in higher regard then anyone else and if someone is paying to attend a conference, at the very least the answers, and actions, shouldn’t leave more questions.
~Trisha
I take my blog very seriously and I think that comes through in my posts. I agree with Trisha that most of us can’t afford to go out and hire a lawyer and I don’t think that means we are not serious about what we do. I cannot afford to host my own site so I use blogger and with my husband being out of work for 6 months now, I can’t put any money into my blog so a lawyer is something that would never even cross my mind.
Trisha – I agree 100%!
To the PR-I am one of the newer bloggers and its incredibly hard to get recognized when the PR people say “Its all about the traffic” . You know what it makes me want to do? It makes me want to stop doing business with anyone, stop reviews, stop giveaways, stop posting releases. Because according to PR. I don’t have numbers high enough for them to care anyway!
I don’t make any money from my blog, no ads, no paycheck. Nothing. Why would I get a lawyer for nothing? I don’t have contracts either. Apparently people with that great traffic get contracts.
You cannot lump all of us bloggers based one Dooce. You aren’t giving newer bloggers with a great voice, a chance to help your brands. Ignore the numbers. Take chances a little.
I’m familiar with your involvement with Tide (I’m the president of the PR agency that represents them and actually met you at the BlogHer luncheon.) As for this panel, I’m sorry you took away nothing of value, but you’re entitled to your opinion. My only request would be that you consider that PR professionals are not all the Great Enemy. Every time you paint us with a broad brush like you did in this post, you insult an entire professiona and also convey an unfair image to newbie bloggers who seek your guidance in this space.
Uh, why would I get a lawyer? Any reviews or giveaways I have been asked to do have been via email. My compensation is a free product to test. The PR firm gets free advertising that will be available as long as I have my blog up and running. Why would I get an attorney for that? So he/she could tell me that I am getting the shit end of the deal? Because my time and effort is pretty much uncompensated when you take into account how long it takes to get up the post, run the contest and make sure it’s fair and the winner followed the rules? Yeah, I already know this. But I do it because I am trying to BUILD relationships with PR, my readers and get my blog out there.
I KNOW I am worth more than what I am getting right now. But, as you said, it’s all about the traffic & numbers, neither of which I have at this point in time. But you did contradict yourself by saying that it is about traffic first and content second. Dooce has traffic, sure, but so does The BLoggess. Big Brand Companies seem to not care about Dooce’s R-rated posts, so why should they care about Jenny’s?
My point is that when PR gives me a CONTRACT each and every time they ask to work with me AND a compensatory paycheck, then I will have my attorney look over the paperwork. Until then, start noticing the great writers with not so great traffic and start treating bloggers in general like they are truly worth their weight in gold. Because we are. You all know this and so do we. The Mom Blogosphere can make or break a company with reviews and posts. The World Wide Webby isn’t as large as you think it is. And Mom Bloggers do have power.
Like Trisha said, the majority of bloggers can’t even afford their own hosting let alone a lawyer. I think before PR talks about bloggers having lawyers, they need to think about the ripple effect. If I have a lawyer on retainer for my blog, I’m going to pass that cost on to the companies I work with. I will no longer do reviews just for the product itself, but then there would have to be a fee involved to cover my business expenses. This would be called advertising. It’s not a new concept. Let’s face it, the companies are getting a steal of a deal on advertising prices with blogs as it is now. I don’t see them wanting to cough up actual advertising dollars for blogs anytime soon, and want to deal with the legality of 30 different lawyers to deal with 30 different bloggers.
I didn’t read through all the comments but I did read your post. I agree.
and hey, to be honest, if a company wants to pay me the big bucks, i will start a new blog, have an alias and lie and say I like tide, and that I wear dress barn all the time. two things which are untrue, but since they woudl be coming from alias, the smart people would figure it out quickly,
and the guy LOOKS like a douche. I can’t believe his tweets. he is a follower, not a leader. I would like to see leaders giving us all advice not sheep.
I’m late to the game here commenting because I’ve been on travel.
Yes, I was rolling my eyes, because I felt like the bloggers weren’t actually getting their questions answered.
That we really weren’t getting to the meat of the issue. What I want to say requires much more than a comment, so look for a post (with link love of course) in the near future.
It takes a lot to offend me and I have to say that I was personally offended by some of his tweets but for me, the kicker was the one that the sent to @resourcefulmom and @reallifesarah when he was leaving.
At the end of the day though, I’ll be paying more attention to how he responds and behaves moving forward than what was said in the first place…that will be the most telling of all.
Sometimes the reaction speaks louder than the action…
Looking forward to your post and incite as always.
OK, so my future post will probably be more in general terms than about this specific situation…because, hey, why call attention to bad behavior, I’d rather focus on the positive.
Employees of companies all over are on the interwebs. Whether someone says a stream is personal or not, when you’re in this business, the lines get blurry. Real blurry. Whether you’re a blogger, a PR pro, an ad exec…it applies to everyone.
In the meantime, I’m going to continue to try as humbly as I can to practice what I preach. And if I slip up, I’ll own up.
Hm. Some very interesting points for thought Trisha! Was it just what David had to say, or the whole panel in your opinion?
As moderator, I tried to refrain from imposing my own views on the panel (hard to do when you are as opinionated as I am!) but I’m not sure I got the experience the same way as you, other audience members or the panel members. I was a little to focused on mic wrangling and trying to keep the pace up.
That said, I was part of the “potentially inappropriate” or “hypocritical” behavior that night. So now, despite my not being in PR nor truly blogging much anymore, it still seems like something that needs thought on my part.
Can we chat more about this later?
I just saw your comment! Thanks for leaving one. I am open to chat at any time. And it was also great to meet you.
I have a feeling we would be terribly dangerous if left alone together to rule the web.
Trisha
Great post, I don’t have a long comment sorry!
I agree 100% in that what people preach, they should also live. We as so-called “mom bloggers” [as much as I hate that generalization] are just that – bloggers. We are not corporations who have employees and lawyers on staff and the works. I totally agree that if someone expects professionalism from us, we should get it from them in return. I understand Douche’s point about it being his personal Twitter account, but if there are so many people out there who know that is his account and what company he is connected to, don’t you think he should possibly tone it down just a bit? I mean, if that’s what he wants in a blogger, shouldn’t that be how he acts?
I wasn’t at the conference. Can you say what they meant by “why are bloggers now being told they have to alter their content in order to have company representation?” Are companies asking/seeking out bloggers that say don’t use salty language for example are companies asking/seeking out bloggers that don’t blog about specific things/subjects?
I am not sure I understand your question.
Ladies and Gentlemen…I whole heartedly second this post. I was there, I was listening to all of the BS out of this guy’s mouth and I also called him a douche…but I added “bag” to the end.
How is organic/unfiltered/raw blogging possible if you are an employee of the company? I blogged for Supernanny and it was part of the understanding that I could not talk about any of the negative aspects of the show, my experience or Jo. I couldn’t handle it anymore and had to kiss $600 per month goodbye. In the end, for me, honesty and candor win out over money. BUT I would love to get paid for my honesty and candor! LOL
I agree whole heartedly with you Kadi, on the issue of blogging and being tied in with a company. The way things work simply must change. Period. The opinions I have of blogs that read like infomercials are strong, and I think the argument both you and Trisha are making on that issue is dead on. But, to separate the issues that this post touched on, The David part, I don’t think he was the one to attack here. He doesn’t make the rules, he doesn’t enforce the rules, he only explains them. They aren’t his rules, he isn’t expecting anything from us, so I guess I don’t get why we should hold him to the standards we all hate being held to.
I mean, you can be offended by what he tweets, I lose followers everyday for shit like that, but that doesn’t make him hypocritical.
My point Brittany is there is a time and a place. If I am speaking ABOUT the rules on company engagement to a large group, isnt it common sense for those FEW days I am talking and sharing with others and eyes are on me, I should be upholding the very things I am talking about.
Or is this a case of “Jesus he loves me and He knows Im right…”
~Trisha
Brittany, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with this portion of your comments. What you said is like saying that the cops don’t make the laws they just enforce them, but they are not required to follow them. You mentioned in another comment that he is not even PR so what makes him the expert then? I am not shooting down his credibility. I am sure he is very qualified to discuss the matter as he works in the PR world, but you can’t expect people not to react to a comment like “elbows, titties or ass”, especially when it is made on a public forum during a conference in which he is the person representing the “professional” portion. It sounds like a “Do as I say not as I do” moment.
I don’t think the point that Trisha is making as anything to do with David personally, as she has stated she does not know him. Her point is that because she does not know him, as many at the conference didn’t, his twitter comments came across as hypocritical. I am the largest propent of free speech and support David’s right to say it at any time or place of his choosing. Hell, I am not even offended by it. However, he cannot claim that it is his personal account and should not be held against him when those that follow him know him as their PR person. When you hold a public position, whether in a private company or public (gov’t) official you can and will be scrituinzed regardless of when you say or do what it is you do. In this case even though he was not representing his company at the time, his name ties into it and at this forum and with those who know him as a PR person, he is representing his company at all times.
Regardless of whether we want to admit it or not we are always representing what we are associated with. That is why personal issues/situations can wreck any one’s position in any company. I am willing to bet that if one of his brands had seen it knowing that he was representing their company as the messenger of what that company expects from its bloggers, he woulnd’t be working with them much longer.
I read this post 3 times. I wanted to make SURE I caught what you were throwing here, and TO ME, who happens to have just woke up from A NAP on my couch in, wait for it, my UNDERWEAR, it seems there are two issues here.
PR and blogging is a topic I am sensitive about, because frankly, I am the exact type of blogger of which they speak.
The unsellable.
Now, my thoughts on THAT issue could be a whole other post, but me and my fucks, and my 60k traffic, will wait on THAT to address the other matter at hand, David Binkowski.
Now, my email box is just as full of press releases as the next blogger, but when it comes to PR people, I have YET to find one that will look me straight in the eye and see me, and my site, for what it is. And as someone who sat through that session, I would be lying if I said I didn’t do my fair share of eye rolling.
But, the fact is, he was right.
I think it’s a case of not shooting the messenger.
Does he agree with the fact that some companies refuse to step a toe into the pool of extremely successful bloggers who keep honest, cuss filled blogs? I can confidently say no, because he is the ONLY media/PR person who spent ANY amount of time with me at the conference. And, that being said, while he DOESN’T agree with it, it doesn’t mean what he said during that panel was any less true.
Ultimately, it’s a call the advertiser makes, not him, and he, like a few other PR people on that panel, said as much.
Right now, in this climate, advertisers will not touch a blog that they deem inappropriate.
Until THAT game is changed, this is the way it is.
His statement was right, and how he behaves outside of that statement, on twitter, facebook, etc. is moot. He isn’t operating as a blogger trying to get his hands on ad money. He isn’t an advertising company telling bloggers to clean up their act and then sleeping with underage hookers when no one is looking.
He is just the medium of which oblivious advertisers use to help spread around their brand, and his personal thoughts on how they chose do it is negated by the fact that it isn’t up to him, he can only follow the guidelines set forth to him. He doesn’t make them up, he only explains them. It’s his job.
People wanted the answer, and he gave it to them.
I like David, and enjoyed the hours I was able to spend with him. He mad every effort to understand me on a level no other PR person ever has. I am excited by his ideas, and his outlook on the blogosphere in regards to the way things are headed, and what needs to change. And, the 14 year old boy sense of humor I have would be remiss to not admit, I like him more for the way he acts outside of panel.
And, as a blogger who is constantly tossed against the decency fence by FCC grade content bullies, I would never hold anyone else to that kind of standard or treatment, including David.
You know i LOVE LOVE ya brittany, so I am happy to have you discussing with me. I respect everything you said and have reread a few times.
One point is sticking w/ me though.
I dont get how his tweets can be a moot point when you and I are both thrown against the fence and held to a standard and neither one of us are companies. To me, its our text being held against us, therefore how can someone assigning and campaigning a brand, talking about “titties and ass”, be LESS offensive then any other content on a blog- and in a public social media environment and during a conference no less.
Wouldnt that just mean that no matter what *anyone* does, they should be able to be considered separate from their business self? If that is the case, great, thats what we all want. But what I got out of the session was that NO, you cant be like that. You must be professional to work with brands or you must have literally millions of uniques per month to override it.
To see the professionals act the same way we do, but we are told we cannot, blows my mind.
Tell me if I am getting this wrong.
Trisha
PS I want to make sure every one knows I am super liberal. I BELIEVE that you should be able to represent any company and still be yourself. I also believe David should be able to tweet what he likes with zero consequences. I am just trying to line the two up in my brain on what PR expects and what PR puts out. I want the standards to be similar. Or I want someone on the PR side to admit that they will NEVER be similar and that bloggers have to face consequences and PR doesnt.
Btw, I have been to your blog 1 million and 1 times and can honestly tell you I would take you telling me a brand was great with a lot more force then a review blogger any day of the week.
That is the truth.
Ok, I want you to know, I see your point, and I TOTALLY understand it, nay, I agree with it. In part.
So, let me explain where I think our thoughts differ.
Do I think companies should operate at the same level of decency that they expect from bloggers? Yes. Absolutely.
(sidenote: do I agree with companies thinking they have any sort of say in what I publish on MY site, no…but again, a topic for another day.)
Do I think David was hypocritical in his actions? No.
David isn’t a company regulating funds based on content. He doesn’t have decency standards he is asking to to adhere to. He isn’t asking you to clean up your site or accept being blacklisted by companies. In fact, David isn’t even a PR Rep.
What he was doing was explaining to the audience the HOW and the WHY to which brands select and work with bloggers.
He was just answering the question.
The standards he spoke about weren’t HIS standards, but rather, the information he knows to be true based on x amount of years in the industry.
Thats a fair enough response Brittany. I can apprieciate your point. I still dont agree with you. LOL But I completely understand what you are saying and in almost any other situation I would be on your side.
I still believe that there is a duty in specific situations to uphold a standard-like during a conference on professionalism and staying professional. Kwim?
Maybe its the military in me.
I do understand what you are saying though.
Trisha
Very well put, Brittany. In the panel, David was simply informing the audience how companies are thinking NOT what bloggers should be doing.
As a blogger who does not censor myself yet receives money and products to promote, I feel like it’s only those who don’t receive the offers who are complaining.
In regards to David, he is one of the most personable PR/Marketing/Media Relations professionals I’ve ever met. He’s smart, articulate, and creates relationships with both the companies he represents and the bloggers for which he is a liaison.
We are all adults with adult interactions. From dildos to dancing like a stripper on a table at a panel, we all chose to act how we want. Burning a “professional” bridge is our own personal decision.
This is untrue. I have zero issues receiving products or offers. I simply have a large site and am blessed with excellent relationships with PR.
I CHOOSE to only work w/ 1-2 brands per month because I am not a review blogger and dont want to brand myself as such.
The article has NOTHING to do with my own development of my site.
For me, its the entire principle of acting one way and preaching another. As anyone who reads my blog already knows, this isn’t the first, nor will it be the last, discussion I will do on the this whole PR/Blogger phenomenon. There are probably 30+ posts on separate issues as it is.
I don’t get scared that a PR rep may not contact me because I want to discuss something. However, what I am looking for is figuring out what type of standards bloggers are supposed to have versus those that come to us.
To me, they should be similar.
I am still not really getting a great answer on that. Just lots of david is a great guy posts. I am sure he is. I am a great person too. That doesnt really change the speaker to tweeter thing for me.
Oh well, to each his own! I think my point was probably made.
~Trisha
Great points Trisha and the douche…omg, his tweet are so insulting! Where’s his lawyer, Mr. Professional guy?
Hi Trisha,
I think you made some awesome points in your post.
I’ve seen this with other PR people and bloggers. PR needs to take a step back and take a deep breath about their numbers. Stop trying to just fill slots and look for bloggers you want to work with instead of trying to mold bloggers into who you want to work with. One thing I pride myself on my blog is I tell it like it is. My life is out there, the good, the bad, the ugly, the funny, and the boring – ALL of it. If they don’t like it, that’s fine. Someone else will come along who does.
Yeah, the tweets – not so professional. You never know who is watching you. Nice post Trisha.
I’m not an f-bomber but its just not one of my choice words. But to ME, and I obviously wasn’t at this conference but to me, being professional means handling the backside of things professionally when deal with companies. I am who I am on my blog, if they don’t like that then they can chose to not be featured on my blog. But then again I’m not making and $$ yet…not cash at least.
But I personally think its very easy to spot a blog that’s working with someone who’s feeding them the exact thing to say and do. I don’t enjoy those blogs because they’re just commercials not actual blogs.
I agree. Its about respecting a company that you are dealing w/ directly, not exactly based on your posted content about your personal life. Thats just me.
I feel like The BLoggess could completely represent a brand like Tide, regardless of her other content, if she treated Tide with respect. That to me is professional.
But hey, to each his own.
I dont care about companies but I care about BLOGGERS and have just as many blogger friends that work reviews/giveaways. I just want to know that the information being handed out by those in charge of speaking, etc. has a clear and concise message.
Trisha,
I was, in fact, the one who asked the question to the panel about the double standard of language use/ pr involvement on blogs. I don’t personally drop the f-bomb on my blog, but I run a site where the writer are encouraged to write with their true voice. That includes dropping “fucks” wherever they feel it fits the post.
However, my question was answered, as so many are in the blogosphere (by several members of the panel, not just David), that numbers matter. If you have the numbers to back up the fact that language isn’t going to damage your social reach and your influence, hell yeah some companies are going to work with you regardless. Others are not.
That’s their loss because the f-bomb droppers of the world have just as much money to spend and just as strong an opinion.
I got the chance to meet and know David at the conference and look forward to working with him because he IS a professional. Not that he portrays one face when in business settings and another one in personal settings…he is himself in all ways and it obviously works for him if you look at the success he’s brought his companies.
You run your blog as you see fit, speaking YOUR voice to YOUR readers and thrive here. Professionalism isn’t the issue when you chose to sing “Like a Virgin” in your wedding dress..it’s funny…they’ll laugh…enough said.
If we’re going to talk irony, I think calling out another speaker at an event as a “douche” without first confronting THEM about your difference of opinion rather unprofessional.
The beauty is I am not trying to be “professional”. My point is that the whole thing was hypocritical.
David just may be “professional” but at whose definition? I was lost in the confusion quite honestly. You may know him, but I don’t, and from this perspective, this is what was left when it was all said and done. I couldn’t take a thing he said seriously after the public persona that followed.
All I expect during a conference is that someone who is speaking ABOUT professionalism, portray the same thing. I mean if you want to be a douche, I’m cool with it. You can be *fucking* douche for all I care.
Still doesn’t take away the double standard. All I have to go on is what was said and then what was done. I am absolutely sick of PR and companies expecting one thing but not really following on their own sides.
Companies are trying to integrate into the bloggers system but it seems to me they want drones, not personalities. I mean, are we bloggers that WORK for companies as employees or are companies trying to reach our audience based on a relationship? Although that’s a different discussion entirely and not one I got into too deeply. Ill get a post up on that soon.
And its amazing if he can be the same at work as he is in his personal life and be successful. Now shouldn’t the same thing be said of bloggers? They can be who they are on their site and STILL represent a brand? Because if they are already successful, isn’t it working for them?
Somehow I missed your question during lunch, or at least don’t remember it,the room was big and I couldn’t hear every direction, so I don’t know what answer you were given. Feel free to post if you have time if they said something about it I am not aware.
But I can say that after hearing about these tweets and comparing to my lunch notes, nothing really added up for me.
And it still doesn’t.
~Trisha
let me add that if u are referring to the dooce double standard, I heard that. But if you are referring to PR acting unprofessional and expecting bloggers to BE professional, I didnt. I just realized that I may have read your post wrong.
trisha
That does seem pretty hypocritical. My mom always taught me to practice what you preach, lol.
Trisha,
We should have talked after the session if there was uncertainty as to what was being said. Most of this is taken out of context.
The purpose of the panel was to answer the question of: “How can I get companies to work with me?”, to which I gave one example where a client in the risk mitigation business wasn’t comfortable with a blogger saying she was “sitting on the couch in her underwear”. This real world example was that this particular client wasn’t comfortable with a company-sponsored blog containing said content. It’s quite common for a company blog to have guidelines and standards. This falls clearly in line with employee guidelines that most companies have when you are a paid employee. Not all companies have the same threshold for what is “acceptable content”.
A few other points of clarification:
- In regard to paying “well”, I was referring to hiring bloggers as writers for companies and making sure they weren’t being paid lowly wages. I would find it hard for anyone to argue against being, as you put it, paid “well” for working.
- It is good business practice to review legal documents. Hell, it’s a good personal policy to do the same. Not being able to afford a lawyer is a completely different subject all together.
- In regard to my personal tweets – I’m not a media channel, am not paid for twittering and don’t use it as a channel to drive business. If the followers that opt-in to read my inanity are OK with what I write they stick around – so far over 2,100 people, which includes clients.
Finally, I’m not suggesting you change who you are, how you blog or what you say. What I am saying is that when asked “How can we work better with companies?” one thing to bear in mind, among several others mentioned during the session, is that companies with certain policies or standards may or may not consider you.
What’s ironic about your post is that I spent most of the time networking and meeting some really outstanding people and organizations at the conference, trying to find ways for us to work together – including one of your editors.
I’m happy to discuss this further with you if you feel there are other points that were unclear or that were missed because you stepped out of the session.
Thanks,
Dave
David, I don’t believe it was taken out of context. This is how it came across and after many discussions with other bloggers, I am far from alone in my thoughts.
My point is that PR cannot expect professionalism from bloggers if they don’t portray the same exact thing themselves. With twitter, facebook, myspace, etc everyone is always watching and if there is supposed to be some sort of standard or ethics that is being preached, it has to be on both sides.
I found your tweets the irony.
I am not upset at you and I truly could care less if bloggers are paid or unpaid or even how they act on their blogs-although no one really answered me how bloggers are paid AND authentic at the same time.
This is my platform and the blogosphere can pretty much tell you that I do what I want, when I want, companies interested in me or not (and mostly they are).
I dont blog for them, I blog for me.
And while I apprieciate the offer of further discussions, I only stepped out briefly, alongside some other bloggers doing the same thing, and stepped back in. I am quite sure those 5 minutes didn’t alter or confuse what I picked up.
The sighs were apparent all over the room.
When a speaker is on a panel and information is being taught to potentially newer bloggers, I just want the same thing being shared as being done.
While your twitter stream is personal and you don’t claim to represent a company there, and I understand that, I don’t represent a company here either but am being judged on it. With that statement it would be like saying my personal posts should have no bearing on my promotional posts, right? And we both know clearly that isnt the case. Your tweets were done during the speaker dinner at a professional conference just hours after talking about blogger and PR engagement.
Whats exactly confusing about that?
Trisha
ps for the record, someone TOLD me about your tweets, because it was being talked about later that night by bloggers at the conference. I didn’t read your stream till it was being discussed.
Great points Trisha, as always.
Which, P.S. For the record, I think I was speaking at that time so I wasn’t in on that panel. I wonder what I’d be feeling like now if I was? Possibly the eye roll. Me ‘n Jessica are too similar for me to think otherwise.
So, I totally gave a shout out to you in my latest post about Type – A. Because, while I actually really liked David, I TOTALLY agree with the overall point here. Which is what I was saying as well. You have to be WHO YOU ARE. Companies that come to you will be the ones that stick around if you can remain yourself. Otherwise, it’s a fake business and nobody wins.
David may be a really great guy, but as someone that doesnt actually know him, I found it to be terribly hypocritical. I am glad you see the point.
I am off to see my mention! Should i be cringing?
trisha
The way I see it, if what you want to do is promote other companies on your blog, make it a shopping blog. I realized quickly that I needed to limit my “commercial interruptions” and stream them into an entirely different feed. Not everyone wants to have to wade through a series of sponsored posts in order to find out what’s actually going on in my life.
When I’m in the mood to enter a giveaway, I’ll surf through my giveaway blogroll.
When I feel like freebie hunting, I’ll surf through the freebie/frugal blogroll.
When I want to look at some crafty goodness, I’ll surf through my craft blogroll.
Etc.
Ok, that was a tangent, sorry. My point is, blogging is all about balance and if a blogger can’t honestly write a balanced post when it is being sponsored by a company, they shouldn’t be writing the post in the first place.
with all the crap that goes on, it makes me grateful that no one has “pitched” me and my blog.
it’s much easier being just a mom who has a blog. i probably don’t need to worry about the lawyer thing, although i have a family full of them so it would be cheap and easy.
but really. isn’t it amazing how blogging has changed?!
p.s. i love the bloggess. dooce makes me barf.
you…are awesome.